path: root/doc/rfc/rfc164.txt

Network Working Group                                      J. F. Heafner
Request for Comments: 164                                           Rand
NIC  6778

                MINUTES OF NETWORK WORKING GROUP MEETING
                       5/16 through 5/19/71

                                  Preface

   These notes are for reference and recall by those in attendance of
   the NWG meetings.  No attempt has been made toward completeness to
   make this an understandable document for those not in attendance.

   The notes are ordered chronologically.  You may notice discrepancies
   for particular schedules and tasks within the notes; the
   discrepancies represent a revision of those schedules and tasks, thus
   those dates given more recent in time are assumed to apply.

   If you detect any gross errors in this report, please make
   corrections via the accepted NIC procedures.

                                 CONTENTS

      I.  SUNDAY EVENING SESSION (5/10/71) .................  4

          Introduction of Attendees ........................  4
          Site Status Reports ..............................  6

            UCLA-Sigma 7 ...................................  6
            UCLA-CCN .......................................  6
            UCSB ...........................................  7
            SRI-ARC/NIC ....................................  7
            SRI-AI .........................................  7
            Rand ...........................................  8
            SDC ............................................  8
            Illinois-CAC ...................................  9
            AMES ...........................................  9
            CCA ............................................ 10
            Case Western ................................... 10
            Carnegie ....................................... 10
            Harvard ........................................ 11
            IBM Research ................................... 11
            RADC ........................................... 11
            MIT-DM and MULTICS ............................. 11
            Lincoln ........................................ 12
            BBN-NCC ........................................ 12
            BBN/TENEX ...................................... 13
            Mitre .......................................... 13



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            NBS ............................................ 14
            ETAC ........................................... 14
            Air Force Sites ................................ 14

         Other Reports ..................................... 15

           Dept. Comm., Canada ............................. 15
           U. of Chicago ................................... 15
           United Kingdom .................................. 15
           Merit-Univ. Michigan ............................ 15
           EDUCOM .......................................... 16
           Raytheon ........................................ 16

         Miscellaneous Topics .............................. 16

           Graphics ........................................ 16
           NCP Protocols ................................... 16
           IMLAC Users Group ............................... 17
           Official Document Formats ....................... 17

     II.  MONDAY MORNING SESSION (5/17/71) ................. 18

          Network Information Center ....................... 18

            Plans for NIC .................................. 18
            Concepts & Recommendations for Documentation ... 18

          TELNET ........................................... 19

    III.  MONDAY AFTERNOON SESSION (5/17/71) ............... 20

          File Transfer Protocol (RFC #114) ................ 20
          File Protocol Status Report ...................... 20
          Miscellaneous Topics ............................. 20

            Sockets ........................................ 20
            Initial Connection Protocol .................... 21
            Testing and Validation ......................... 21

     IV.  MONDAY EVENING SESSION (5/17/71) ................. 22

          Operating Systems and Networks ................... 22

      V.  TUESDAY MORNING SESSION (5/18/71) ................ 24

          DRS Working Group Meeting with Open Attendance ... 24
          Data Management on Computer Networks ............. 24
          Open Discussion on Data Management ............... 25



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     VI.  TUESDAY EVENING SESSION (5/18/71) ................ 27

          Terminal IMP ..................................... 27
          Comments by Dr. Roberts .......................... 27

    VII.  WEDNESDAY MORNING SESSION (5/19/71) .............. 30

   VIII.  WEDNESDAY EVENING SESSION (5/19/71) .............. 31

          Miscellaneous Issues ............................. 32
          NWG Organization ................................. 32








































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                    I. SUNDAY EVENING SESSION (5/10/71)

INTRODUCTION OF ATTENDEES

   Attendees introduced themselves and stated their affiliation.  The
   following list includes persons attending any of the sessions.


   SITE                         NAME

   AMES-ILLIAC                  John McConnell

   AMES-67                      Wayne Hathaway

   ARPA                         Bruce Dolan
                                Cordell Green
                                Larry Roberts

   BBN-NCC                      Will Crowther
                                Frank Hart
                                Robert Kahn
                                Alex McKenzie

   Carnegie                     William Broadley
                                H. Van Zoeren

   Case                         Patrick Foulk

   CCA                          Richard Winter

   Dept. Comm., Canada          Terry Shepard

   EDUCOM                       Henry Chauncey
                                John LeGates

   Harvard                      R. Metcalfe
                                R. Sundberg

   IBM Research                 Douglas McKay

   Illinois-CAC                 Jack Bouknight
                                G. R. Grossman
                                Jim Madden

   Lincoln Labs                 Richard Kalin
                                Joel Winett





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   Merit                        Al Cocanower
                                Brian S. Read

   Merit-Univ. Mich.            W. Scott Gerstenberger

   MIT-DM                       Abhay Bhushan
                                Robert Fleischer
                                Albert Vezza

   MIT-MULTICS                  J. C. R. Licklider
                                Mike Padlipsky

   Mitre                        P. Karp
                                David Wood
                                Gene Raichelson

   NBS                          G. Lindamood
                                T. N. Pyke

   RADC                         Tom Lawrence
                                Bob Walker

   Rand                         E. F. Harslem
                                J. F. Heafner

   Raytheon                     T. O'Sullivan

   SDC                          Robert Long
                                Arie Shoshani

   SRI-ARC-NIC                  Charles Irby
                                John Melvin
                                R. W. Watson

   Stony Brook                  Ralph Akkoyunlu
                                Art Bernstein
                                M. Inam Ul Haq
                                Richard Schantz

   Univ. of Chicago             R. Ashenhurst

   UCLA-CCN                     Robert Braden
                                Steve Wolfe








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   UCLA-NMC                     Vint Cerf
                                Steve Crocker
                                Ari Ollikainen
                                John Postel
                                Rollin Weeks

   UCSB                         Steve Lynch
                                Jim White

   U. K.                        Eric Foxley

   Univ. of London              Peter Kirstein

   Univ. of Mo.                 Dan Garigan

   Univ. of Penna.              Don Bernard

   Univ. of Waterloo            Don Cowan

SITE STATUS REPORTS

   The following are summaries of reports given by affiliates of the
   indicated sites.

   UCLA-Sigma 7

      o    NCP (document 1) and user/server TELNET-like protocol have
           been operational for three months.

      o    NCP (RFC #107) will be implemented by June 1.

      o    TELNET will be implemented within one month of official
           specification.

      o    Have been and will continue to gather Network measurements.

      o    Will use UCSB file protocol in conjunction with above.


   UCLA-CCN

      o    Local hardware has been connected to IMP.

      o    NCP (RFC #107) 70% complete.

      o    NCP (RFC #107) and NETRJS will be in production on JULY 1.

      o    Draft of NETCRT will be issued as RFC soon.



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      o    They can offer APL and are looking for interested users.


   UCSB

      o    UCSB is a service center; 360/75 + 2314 storage.

      o    NCP (doc. 1) operational since mid-October 1970.

      o    NCP (RFC #107) operational and verified remotely.

      o    Services currently offered:
              1) UCSB on-line system
              2) RJE/RJ0
              3) file system
              4) local interfaces to net via F0RTRAN, PL/1, etc.

      o    Short range plans:
              1) DRS implementation and experimental service
              2) Interested in APL
              3) Distributed data base experiment with SRI

   SRI-ARC/NIC

      o    Now running NCP (doc. 1) in TENEX.

      o    NCP (RFC #107) will be installed when BBN releases it.

      o    They are currently examining and tuning TENEX parameters and
           resolving interface difficulties.

      o    Stage 0 plans include initial work with West Coast sites to
           gain experience, in using NIC, with respect to response
           times, traffic loads.  This will initially look like TENEX to
           a user.  Later, this will appear as a virtual machine to
           remote users via a special NIC subsystem.

   SRI-AI (reported by SRI-ARC personnel)

      o    Configuration includes PDP-10, TENEX, high-speed drum, robot.

      o    Probable Network connection in July.

      o    Software includes various theorem-proving mechanisms.

      o    Interested in working on the above over the Network.





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   RAND

      o    Current configuration includes 360/65, 1800, IMP, video
           graphics system.

      o    NCP (RFC #107) in 360/65 in daily production use in
           conjunction with UCSB.

      o    Network Services Program (NSP) used in above features:
              1) dynamic access to local files
              2) access to video consoles
              3) access to NCP
              4) UCSB RJE/RJ0 protocol
              5) UCLA NETRJS protocol (not operational)
              6) Logger and TELNET-like protocols.

      o    PDP-10 to be connected into Net (directly to IMP) in about
           two months -- will eventually run TENEX and be a service
           center.

      o    Short range software development includes TELNET and DRS.

      o    Will continue to provide production support for Climate
           Dynamics.

      o    Hardware is 360/65 connected to Honeywell 516 connected to
           IMP.

      o    NCP (doc. 1) verified with Rand.

   SDC

      o    360/65 runs Adept timesharing, has 10 users, can do protocols
           from a user process.

      o    NCP (RFC #107) will be coded by end of month.

      o    Logger fairly close to being checked out.

      o    Will have TELNET similar to RFC #137 by June 1; will offer it
           by 20 August.










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      o    SDC not meant to be a general service; will allow 1 to 4
           users; can use Adept to run a job.

      o    Experimentation plans include:
              1) Voice I/O will use Net to communicate with speech
                 researchers (will respond to specific programs only)
              2) Eventually graphic I/O
              3) Man/machine synergism
              4) Network data management
              5) Network resources Notebook use and update.

   ILLINOIS-CAC

      o    IMP works.

      o    Will use B5500 on campus since B6500 doesn't work.

      o    Will link to PDP-11 at Paoli for I4 software development --
           not a general link for everyone.

   AMES

      o    Probably will be two separate nodes ILLIAC and 360/67.

      o    Plans are in rumor stage.

      o    Plan TIP by end of summer to gain access to I4 simulator.

      o    Duplex 360/67 will be regular host node.

      o    Are looking for an NCP implementer.

      o    Will use other services; laser store and UCSB.

      o    Their general research includes an interest in Network
           accounting and management.

      o    Will go onto Net as soon as possible to ILLINOIS.

      o    Will go on via TIP if it can support two nodes.

      o    Will define Net protocol for interactive graphics for I4.

      o    Plan to get on Net before I4 comes up.







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   CCA

      o    CCA is responsible for data computer project.

      o    It is special purpose computer with large storage device.

      o    Data computer (PDP-10 and laser memory) should be viewed as
           one black box.

      o    Will have two ports -- high-speed to I4 and low-speed to IMP.

      o    Data language and data will pass over ports.  This will
           include requests of files and portions of files, update,
           manipulation, and transformation of data.  It will not
           include number crunching.  Only access to the laser store
           will be through the black box data computer.

      o    Hardware and communications are specified.

      o    Data computer services are beginning to be defined, (600
           questionnaires were sent out, 10 responses were received).
           With regard to services please call Dick Winter on (617)
           491-3670.  Dick wishes to hear from any potential user.

      o    Laser store is one trillion bits of on-line storage packaged
           in 40 packs containing 10 mylar strips each.  Strips are kept
           in a carousel that can be rotated and mounted in 10 seconds.
           Access to any track is a maximum of 400 ms.

      o    Laser will arrive at CCA in early 1972 and move in late '72.
           Services to laser while located at CCA will be offered.

      o    CCA will send out plans (as feasible) as RFCs.

   CASE WESTERN

      o    Hardware has been built (PDP-10) and starting to test it.

   CARNEGIE

      o    Hardware includes PDP-10 240K 36-bit words, TTY, etc.

      o    Currently using DEC monitor.

      o    Will modify Harvard's version of the monitor.






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   HARVARD

      o    Hardware includes PDP-10 with PDP-1 as graphics devices
           handler.

      o    Hardware is up, talking back and forth.

      o    NCP (RFC #107) for PDP-10 will be completed by the end of the
           month.

      o    PDP-10 has 48K 36-bit words; expect more core after July;
           will then make NCP resident.

      o    Interested in file transfer, graphics, extensible languages,
           experiments of distributed processes.

   IBM RESEARCH

      o    IBM will buy an IMP, now negotiating it.

      o    They are designing new concept of Networking.

      o    They will become an active node with either a 67 or a 91.
           The candidate 91 now has 300-400K.

   RADC

      o    TIP is scheduled for delivery in October.

      o    They will provide local access to the SRI on-line system.

      o    They are interested in the July graphics meeting sponsored by
           MIT. (Al Vezza)

   MIT DM AND MULTICS

      o    GE-645 runs MULTICS: PDP-10 is for dynamic modeling of
           graphics systems.

      o    NCP (RFC #107) on PDP-10 by end of week.

      o    Logger on PDP-10 available by 15 June.

      o    NCP (RFC #107) available on MULTICS by 11 June.

      o    Logger and TELNET available on MULTICS by first week of July.





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      o    They have been conducting file transfer experiments of
           simplified ASCII transfers (not RFC #114).

      o    Interests include:
              1)  File transfers
              2) E & S processing to IMLAC and ARDS formats
              3) DRS service.

   LINCOLN

      o    Three connections are planned.

      o    360/67 has NCP, logger, TELNET, and some file transfer
           protocol.

      o    TX-2 NCP is being developed.  An interim NCP is working with
           file transfer experiments, error detection and correction.

      o    They are experiencing hardware difficulties with the third
           connection.

      o    360/67 has been running NCP (doc. 1) and a TELNET-like
           protocol since 1 March.  UCLA and Rand have logged in.  The
           TELNET-like protocol supports ASCII and EBCDIC.

      o    NCP (RFC #107), TELNET, and logger will be operational on 67
           by 1 July.

   BBN-NCC


      o    NCC is responsible for maintaining the subnet and interfacing
           with Honeywell and AT&T.  They are planning a mechanism for
           repair of the Net from their homes.  The subnet has
           experienced a 98% up time.

      o    An operational 316 version of the IMP has been hooked into
           the Net since February.  It is a production item at 1/2 cost
           of 516; the IMP programs are identical.

      o    The 316 will be incorporated into the TIP.  The multi-line
           controller has been fabricated and is being debugged.  A
           common language for the TIP has been developed.  TIP will be
           delivered to NASA Ames on 1 August.  The TIP will handle 64
           lines up to 19.2K bits.  BBN is still shaking down the kinds
           of terminals that will be compatible (will be bit serial at
           least).  They are working with sites to determine terminal
           requirements.



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      o    The resource notebook has been compiled and distributed.
           Twelve of 19 sites are included in the notebook.  SDC has
           since reported.  Stanford, SRI/AI, MIT/DM, UTAH, Carnegie,
           LL/67 have not provided an entry.  BBN again made a call for
           responses and asked that each site stay up-to-date.  A
           comment was made regarding the Notebook that a mechanism is
           needed for a) date of information, b) complaints of
           information, c) reporting that advertised procedures do not
           work.

      o    TIP delivery for the rest of the year is to the following
           five sites:  Ames, Mitre, Rome, ETAC in Washington, D.C., and
           NBS.

      o    BBN has been studying performance of Network to learn ways to
           improve it.  An earlier Rand RFC reported a very low rate for
           a total Network experiment -- Rand re-ran the experiment to
           examine just the subnet performance and reported the subnet
           rate to be in the 13-15K bit range for that test.  MIT/DM has
           reported a 5KB rate that will be examined further.  BBN made
           a general offer to the Net community to phone NCC in the
           event that such measurements are taken and low data rates are
           discovered.

      o    The BBN-Honeywell relationship is a straightforward
           maintenance contract that includes P.M. and other problems
           which arise.  BBN stated that a 24-hour delay in service
           would be unusually long.  BBN would like to be kept informed
           of views and opinions of the Honeywell service.  BBN asks
           that each site keep a maintenance log and copy it to Marty
           Thrope at BBN.

   BBN/TENEX (reported by BBN/NCC)

      o    BBN has a three-host IMP that includes NCC and two PDP-10s.
           One 10 is for operational use, the other for experimentation.

      o    Software for the PDP-10 is TENEX.

      o    They are interested in getting involved in Network
           experimentation.

   MITRE

      o    Expect TIP delivery in September.

      o    Now using PDP-10 at BBN.




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      o    Will work on sample data management system using UCSB file
           storage.

   NBS

      o    Expect TIP delivery in December.

      o    Have selected PDP-11 as host; ready by December.

      o    Will build from the U. of Illinois operating system.

      o    Contemplating attaching their UNIVAC 1108 to Network.

      o    Will provide experimental access to Network for services:
              1) measurement (performance)
              2) graphics
              3) personal communication
              4) lab automation
              5) support NBS with services appropriate
              6) provide local hardcopy from PDP-11.

   ETAC (Environmental Technical Application Center

      o    ETAC, located in the Washington area, is a branch of Global
           Weather Service.

      o    Air Weather Service in Omaha, Nebraska, has seven 1108s
           providing weather data; one will be connected to Net to
           provide daily weather information to ETAC in Washington.

      o    ETAC has 1401 and 7040 in Washington to produce summaries for
           longer range use; the 7040 may go on the Network.

   AIR FORCE SITES (reported by ARPA)

      o    To export technology to other regions, two Air Force sites
           (Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, and Sacramento, California) will
           temporarily join the ARPA Net to talk only to each other in
           an operation to parallel their AUTODIN connection.  If it
           materializes, they will run for the first six months of '72
           but probably won't continue.  The motivation is to examine
           the Net ideas for developing a wholly autonomous network in
           three or four years.








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OTHER REPORTS

   DEPT. COMM., CANADA

           The Canadian Government wishes to optimize the use of all
           computers in Canada.

           They now have a banking network.

           They are interested in a small net for universities.

           Their largest problem is the size of the country in relation
           to the sparseness of population.

   U. OF CHICAGO

           The University of Chicago has no current time schedule but
           they have definite ideas about what they wish to accomplish
           and they are seeking funding.  They are applying to NSF to
           support a local net on campus for lab automation.  They have
           good people and good equipment; the idea is to make it
           coherent.

           Their interest in the ARPA Network is to make shared software
           available to their people and to a limited extent, make local
           services available to other ARPA nodes.  Their proposed host
           is a PDP-11 to the mini computers and a second host (PDP-10)
           as a big software engine to make data available to the mini
           computers.  The PDP-10 and PDP-11 will perhaps be linked
           together.  They also expect to get a TIP to provide remote
           number crunching for their people.

   UNITED KINGDOM

           They have proposed three main machines and three terminal
           nodes.  They have in mind the 906A, approximately the 360/75
           in power.

           Their Post Office also has plans for a digital network in the
           distant future.

   MERIT

   MERIT-UNIV. MICH.

           Most of the bugs are out of the hardware.

           Most of the software is written.



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           Will have PDP-11s by the end of the summer that are capable
           of transmission from one to another.

           They will need and are now studying a TELNET-like protocol.

           They are concerned with orderly communication of the two
           processors; will later become concerned about process-process
           communication.

   EDUCOM

           EDUCOM involves 100 major universities including most of
           those now in the ARPA Network.  For two years, they have been
           running a network without wires.  They assume the ARPA
           Network can resolve the technical issues.  They are looking
           into marketing, contracts, documenting, etc., for running the
           network.  They have conducted a survey of 70 universities,
           polled about their interests in the ARPA network: 60 of 70
           are interested, 14 have money and are ready to become sites.

   RAYTHEON

           They will access the Net through the four Boston nodes.

           Their interests include:
            1) experiments of file transfer conversions.
            2) indexing behavioral data to allow one to search an index
               to see if the body of data of interest is within the
               Network.

MISCELLANEOUS TOPICS

Graphics

   Al Vezza will host a July meeting of a small group interested in
   Network graphics.  The price of admission is a sincere interest,
   working background, and a prepared talk.

NCP Protocols

   A new official document will replace document 1 and RFC #107;
   implementation should not be held up because of the absence of this
   new document.

   The long range protocol committee chaired by Carnegie has been
   disbanded.





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IMLAC Users Group

   A quick survey was taken to determine which sites had or planned to
   get an IMLAC.  The plan is to form an IMLAC users group.  The
   following sites have or plan to get one:  UCLA-S7, AMES-67, BBN,
   SRI-ARC, Stanford, MIT-DM, MIT-MULTICS, Mitre, Case, Raytheon, U. of
   Illinois.

Official Document Formats

   The notion of a functional document was suggested, one of which would
   be the document of official protocols with divisions of levels of
   protocols.






































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                   II.  MONDAY MORNING SESSION (5/17/71)

NETWORK INFORMATION CENTER

Plans for NIC

   Two activities are planned for this summer, off-line mail and on-line
   access.  The off-line service will continue after the on-line service
   has come into being.  Plans for getting on the Net via PDP-10
   (replaced XDS-940) are almost complete.  Response times for display
   use are marginal.

   The activities will be developed in stages.  Stage 0 (June 18) NIC
   will work with West Coast sites.  This will involve providing NLS
   facilities to allow people to create messages with initial delivery
   as hardcopy, etc., with automatic generation of catalog entry and NIC
   #.  This system has been used locally for about a month.  Stage 1
   (August 2) NIC will be open to the Net community as a whole.  Remote
   users will come in directly to the on-line system and will have on-
   line access to the catalog.  Users will be trained either at SRI or
   at their own sites before coming on.  Four to eight concurrent
   terminals will be supported.  Stage 2 will include file transfer
   protocol, on-line delivery of messages, remote editing of SRI-located
   text.  Prior to stage 0, a course will be offered (on June 16, 17)
   for UCLA, Rand, SDC, UCSB, Ames, and RADC for the use of Stage 0.
   The second group of users (after stage 0) will use NIC to do their
   own site documentation.

Concepts & Recommendations for Documentation

   The NIC # is a unique "name" for reference -- it has no other
   meaning. Other numbering schema such as RFC numbers will eventually
   go away.  However, the subgroups, such as RFCs, will remain.
   Appropriate set manipulators will be provided for assisting in
   storage and retrieval.

   The notion of functional documents was introduced (see RFC #115).
   This is to be a document whose purpose is reasonably stable over
   time.  It can have subdocuments that change more frequently.  A
   current list of functional documents includes the NIC Catalog,
   Directory of People, Resources Notebook, Protocols, and Site
   Facilities (one for each site).

   The mechanism of documentation is the responsibility of NIC; the
   document contents are the responsibility of the author.  There are
   two cases of document revision; replace part of the document and
   replace the entire document.  In general, NIC would like the document




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   to be re-issued in its entirety with a new NIC # rather than issuing
   errata.  The functional documents are in looseleaf form, new pages
   can be issued with the same number and a revision date.

   Documents are reproduced and mailed to site liaisons 24-48 hours
   after receipt.  They are mailed to station agents on a weekly basis.
   When mailing is handled directly by a site, a copy of the document
   and a distribution list should also be sent to NIC.  In the past, NIC
   has supplied abstracts of documents for the catalog; NIC requests
   that the authors include an abstract.

TELNET

   The purpose of TELNET is to provide an immediate mechanism for
   communication between keyboard terminals and serving processes, with
   sufficient platform for later expansion and sophistication.

   Tom O'Sullivan described TELNET as delineated in RFC #137.  (Later in
   these NWG meetings, Tom issued RFC #158, a new TELNET protocol.)
   After the description, many issues and questions were raised, viz.,
   can TELNET expect "recovery" from NCP, 128 vs. 256 character set, DLE
   + 7-bit code vs. high-order bit on, should protocol extend service
   beyond what level consoles see, human factors, if information is
   available at second level should it be passed to TELNET, TWX-like
   service from NIC, mailbox protocol, etc.

   In large part, these issues were raised but not resolved.  It was
   agreed that an RFC would be forthcoming (RFC #158, published later at
   the meetings) followed by a functional document.






















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RFC 164         Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting        May 1971


                 III.  MONDAY AFTERNOON SESSION (5/17/71)

FILE TRANSFER PROTOCOL (RFC #114)

   The file transfer protocol (RFC #114) was described.  See also RFC
   #133 and RFC #141.

   A simplified version of RFC #114 is being implemented by MIT/DM and
   MIT/MULTICS in order to: 1) allow Dynamic Modeling access to MULTICS
   file storage facility and 2) conduct a pilot project to gain
   understanding of such protocols.

   It was noted that RFC #114 was not simple enough to implement for
   TIPs.

   A group was formed to meet Wednesday morning for more discussion and
   to exactly define the problems.  The group would include
   representatives from UCLA, UCSB, BBN, MIT, Rand, SRI, Harvard.

FILE PROTOCOL STATUS REPORT

   UCSB described the status of RFC #122, A Simple Minded File System,
   as an operational program; not a proposal.  The basic concepts of the
   file system were described; the design objective was to provide a
   simple service quickly.

   Currently one 2314 drive and pack is available.  At most four drives
   will be made available during the next year.  It is also not clear
   how long space will remain available.  The storage is currently free.

   Sites that will use the file system are Mitre, via BBN, UCLA, SRI,
   and Raytheon via one of the Boston hosts.

MISCELLANEOUS TOPICS

Sockets

   Socket name structure was briefly discussed.  Relevant RFCs that were
   mentioned were 1) RFC #129 whose purpose was to describe socket
   structures enumerated at the February NWG meetings, and 2) RFC #147,
   a recently proposed structure.

   It was pointed out that there was a definite need to reduce the
   socket length from 32 to 16 bits (a TIP storage problem) regardless
   of its structure.






Heafner                                                        [Page 20]
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RFC 164         Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting        May 1971


   A committee (Bob Metcalfe, Chairman with Abhay Bhushan and Joel
   Winett) was appointed to produce a report in two weeks.  The
   committee is to address the following three issues:

      1) is a socket structure needed
      2) are more than 16 bits needed
      3) what procedures are recommended for managing socket numbers.

Initial Connection Protocol

   Race conditions and time out problems were elucidated.  See RFC #123,
   127, and 151.

   A committee (chaired by Jon Postel and including Steve Wolfe, Eric
   Harslem, and Arie Shoshani) was appointed to clean up the ICP
   specification.

Testing and Validation

   Sites wishing a remote partner to exchange NCP, TELNET, and logger
   protocols can contact Rand.  Rand was to collect status information
   before and during these exercises.  Information was to be forwarded
   to Alex McKenzie to maintain and update status reports.  (NOTE:  A
   later steering committee decision reflects on the way in which this
   information is gathered, however.  Rand is still available for
   testing and validation.)

























Heafner                                                        [Page 21]
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RFC 164         Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting        May 1971


                   IV.  MONDAY EVENING SESSION (5/17/71)

   NOTE: Minutes of this session were kindly prepared by Bob Walker,
   RADC.

OPERATING SYSTEMS AND NETWORKS

   An attempt was made to study the ARPA Networks from an academic point
   of view.  An analogy was drawn on the basis that the ARPA Network
   with its hosts and protocols is in a sense an "operating system" and
   that a study of what makes a good operating system might help define
   what makes a good ARPA Network.

   Professor Art J. Bernstein of Stony Brook gave a presentation
   abstracting what he considered to be the features of a flexible
   operating system, the techniques for obtaining such; and when
   appropriate, a discussion of those aspects where a difference in
   techniques is required between dealing with an internal operating
   system and dealing with a network.

   The features of a flexible operating system were cited as:  (1) a
   flexible file structure, (2) a process hierarchy, and (3) an
   interprocess communication facility (IPC).  The terminology and
   techniques described to obtain these three features were essentially
   those developed for the MULTICS system.

   A file structure capability was defined in terms of hierarchy of
   directories, tree names, active file table, hold count, known file
   table, and reference number.

   A process hierarchy was discussed in terms of father-son relationship
   and a father-node spawning a son node, creating an entry in the known
   file table and assigning resources, all embodied in the SPAWN
   primitive.  Implementation of primitives as time independent was
   stressed as being crucial to Network activity whereas not necessarily
   so for an internal operating system.  This lead into the concept
   subcontracting process, where executive type functions are treated on
   the same basis as user processes and as such are swappable.  The
   "link process" was then described as the interface mechanism between
   two cooperating machines.

   Interprocess communication was discussed in terms of channels, status
   return and software interrupts.  Appropriate primitives were defined
   in detail as well as control type problems.







Heafner                                                        [Page 22]
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RFC 164         Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting        May 1971


   The discussion then went to file handling and a specification of the
   required primitives and thence to directory handling, specification
   of related primitives, and the mechanics of directory handling,
   specifically the outstanding operation entry table in the executive.

   After a short recess, Bob Metcalfe gave a presentation from the ARPA
   Network point of view with reference to various points of Professor
   Bernstein's presentation.  He noted the all pervasive tree structure
   in Bernstein's presentation which appears to be most efficient to
   internal operating systems (i.e., file system, process hierarchy,
   etc.), but that the ARPA Network is not a tree structure but rather a
   directed graph and that we should be careful not to impose tree
   structure thinking on a directed graph type situation.

   A number of questions and problem areas were elicited from the group
   and listed on the blackboard:
      1) How much does the operating system need to know about the
         Network to get how much and vice versa?
      2) Degree of transparency to the user?
      3) "Optimal" resource allocation on the Network?
      4) Autonomy versus centralization of control.
      5) Resiliency.

   The group discussed the need for a committee on Theory, how it should
   function, how often should they meet, requirements for attendance,
   etc.  Dave Walden was mentioned as a possible organizer of a related
   effort.  Bob Metcalfe agreed to chair such a committee.
























Heafner                                                        [Page 23]
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RFC 164         Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting        May 1971


                   V.  TUESDAY MORNING SESSION (5/18/71)

DRS WORKING GROUP MEETING WITH OPEN ATTENDANCE

   The purpose of the Data Reconfiguration Service meeting was to
   resolve several lingering syntax and semantics issues and also to
   receive comments and discuss the DRS with the entire Net community.

   A brief overview of the DRS (see RFC #138) was given.

   Remaining technical issues were resolved.  An implementation
   specification (replacing RFC #138) will be issued soon.

   Initial implementers and users were polled for schedules and initial
   experiments, results are shown below.

   MIT        No dates currently provided
   U. of Ill. One or two months will be required to reformat from remote
              formats to GOULD printer; also conversion of ARDS to
              COMPUTEC strings.
   UCSB       Implementation of service in two months; will provide
              system forms for remote TTY-like devices to access UCSB
              on-line system.
   MITRE      Will compare performance of DRS to current software of
              UCSB file experiment.
   Rand       implement service by September; initial use to specify
              UCSB RJE/RJ0 and UCLA NETRJS formats for local users.
   UCLA       will have a compiler of forms within one month unless
              serious difficulties arise.

DATA MANAGEMENT ON COMPUTER NETWORKS

   SDC presented RFC #144 (see also RFC #146).  Arie Shoshani presented
   considerations and approaches that can be taken to achieve data
   sharing.  The considerations were common language, sharing of
   existing data, evolutionary/revolutionary, future and use facility,
   further development, implementation, and speed.

   Approaches given were:
         1)  centralized
             a) new data only
             b) existing data
         2)  standardized data
         3) integrated - common languages + interfaces
             a) interface on different nodes
             b) interface on service node
             c) Data Reconfiguration Service
         4) Unified



Heafner                                                        [Page 24]
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RFC 164         Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting        May 1971


   Dick Winter described the CCA approach.  With several data computers
   it becomes decentralized.  All data computers have identical hardware
   and software.  Their objective is to dispose and restructure data
   throughout the Net to optimize its use, i.e., relocate it close to
   where it is used most heavily.  For small files of wide interest
   multiple copies can be maintained.

   Dr. Roberts commented that with respect to the Network, no
   distance/cost relationship exists if data is retrieved more than one
   link away.  The reason for putting files in several places is
   reliability.  He views the CCA approach as a Net-level language, thus
   the unified approach.  Also the natural language approach is suitable
   as a research project but not suitable for data management for real
   Net experiments.

   CCA will present a proposal of data language at the next NWG meeting.

OPEN DISCUSSION ON DATA MANAGEMENT

   This time period was initially allocated to the description of a
   particular data management system being constructed by Mitre.  It
   became, in fact, an open discussion of general principles and
   requirements for data management in the Network.  The following were
   among the most recurrent comments made.

   1.  DRS, file protocol, and data management should be examined in a
       comprehensive way.

   2.  Important considerations of data management are to allow users to
       define and restructure files logically, to move towards
       transparency of the Net, and to move toward natural language.

   3.  A data management system should include functions for define,
       access, manipulate, analyze, store of files.  For example, the
       data computer doesn't do formatting for output (like an RPG), it
       can take a number of conditions and do conditional retrieval but
       not RPG.

   4.  A data management system could be developed in stages where a)
       the user explicitly moves data around the Net, b) the user
       specifies the location but the access is integrated
       automatically, c) location is maintained by the service.

   5.  An area should be defined between file handling and application
       specific manipulation, and the area should be treated in a system
       wide way.





Heafner                                                        [Page 25]
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RFC 164         Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting        May 1971


   6.  The super file (too large for any one individual to economically
       own) never came up before but it is reasonable for the Net.
       However it is just one use and there still will be need of many
       10^9 files.

   7.  Privacy and security criteria should be applied at output rather
       than input, which is an argument for having processing capability
       at the location of the file.

   8.  Dr. Roberts indicated that the things that are important are what
       things are on the Net, and what things are there to say.  The
       structure depends on what there is to say.  Thus, one should
       concentrate on the language and not the structure.

   9.  The data management system can be viewed as having two parts: 1)
       the request, 2) the response and format.  On the response side
       (operand side) there is the taxonomy of data types and a template
       of data followed by the data.  A template is a string in which
       data types or their descriptions are given with knowledge of
       iteration, recursion, and data types.  On the request (operator)
       side, templates can be used to precisely specify the data to be
       retrieved, assuming the structure of the file is already
       specified.

   10. The disposition and request are over structures to the response.

   A small group was established to continue discussion on data
   management.























Heafner                                                        [Page 26]
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RFC 164         Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting        May 1971


                  VI.  TUESDAY EVENING SESSION (5/18/71)

TERMINAL IMP

   The TIP can either be configured with 1) one host and two phone lines
   or 2) three phone lines.  Interfaces will provide 19.2KB to lowest
   TTY speeds for each line.  It can handle various terminals and
   devices.

   Normally the user speaks through the TIP but a primitive language
   exists for talking to the TIP.  Commands will exist to do the
   particular protocols such as logger.  Other commands will be present
   for terminate on line feed, on character, now, on nth char., at end
   of message, i.e., class of things to determine when message is sent.
   There is another class to determine echoing.  Device rates can be set
   up.  The serving site can also set up command such as capturing a
   printer.

   The TIP is currently trying to comply with all second and third level
   protocols such as TELNET, file transfer (when defined).

   Current plans are that the TIP cannot be reloaded through the
   Network.

   When new terminals are added, BBN will supply the TIP routines as
   part of the service.

   The TIP is intended to be used for RJE, terminal to process, and
   later tape to tape.  The TIP is intended to be a switch rather than
   an operating system, under the assumption that power will reside in
   terminals and service centers.

   The program limits the bandwidth -- the sum of input and output is
   100KB.

   Potential for TIP delivery is about one every three weeks after
   August.  An upper figure for the TIP is $100K; the leasable terms are
   $40K/yr. for three years plus a residual of $5K to own it, with a
   two-year minimum.  This was designed as an alternate method of
   purchase.

"COMMENTS BY DR. ROBERTS"

   The major cost benefit in the near term to getting on the Network
   will be to use other physical systems to access new resources.  It
   will be a number of years before people enter the Network in order to
   get rid of machines or to boost CPU usage.




Heafner                                                        [Page 27]
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RFC 164         Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting        May 1971


   Regarding future Network growth, the University of California has
   proposed to enter seven universities into the Network.  We should
   have the data and program sharing protocols fixed by that time.  ETAC
   will be working on the past 10 years weather in 10^11 store.  NCAR
   will be trading time (a 6600 and a 7600) with them and with ILLIAC;
   use is restricted to weather work.  January or February are probable
   dates.  This will be a third cross country connection through UTAH
   perhaps (second is via Omaha weather).  SC will be added in March or
   April '72 for picture processing.  England will join about February '
   72.  There are other plans to tie in Mexico, France, Israel,
   Australia, Japan, Hawaii, Canada, etc. that could possibly all happen
   in '72.

   With regard to operating the Network, ARPA will not operate it
   indefinitely.  One plan is to have AT&T operate it since they can
   legally sell the services; this will not come about soon.  A
   commercial organization (not a common carrier) can only operate the
   Net under Government sponsorship.  The current plan is to have BBN
   run the Net as a service for the Government; this will be settled
   within the coming year.

   On the question of resources, setting up contracts with the service
   people at each site to get one agent to ship money for various
   subcontracts is a basic legal framework; for ARPA purposes it is
   sufficient to have only one connection with each site.

   On software development, the NCP progress has been extremely poor and
   slow.  The second iteration should have been defined by now from
   experiences with the first.  Towards the end of the year a new
   protocol should be defined to last for a couple of years.  Accounting
   and billing protocol should also be defined.  The NCP protocol is
   getting to be a critical problem -- everyone should be complete and
   consistent with the current protocol by July 1.  Without it, there
   will be serious problems of bringing new people onto the Net.  For
   example, the I4 and the laser store will be on the Net by March or
   April of '72 with serious people wanting to use it (80% of its use
   will be remote).  By early '72 the Net must be a solid working
   entity.

   The question of profit making time-sharing companies on the Net
   depends on whether or not AT&T takes over Net operations.

   The capital arrangement for non-ARPA users to be on the Net is as
   follows.  A federal agency can donate $76K and get a TIP.  Non-
   federal agencies can pay $36K per year for the TIP for three years
   plus the $5K residual to own it.  ARPA will not decide casually to
   allow non-federal agencies on.




Heafner                                                        [Page 28]
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RFC 164         Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting        May 1971


   Regarding software support services, documentation will be upgraded
   so all sites need not keep complete NIC documentation (except service
   sites).  In service centers it makes sense to add one or two
   personnel to work on net service programs, work with users, etc., if
   needed.  Research centers will now have to concern themselves with
   reliability, integrity, and problems of access.

   Regarding the charging mechanism for the data computer, the 10^12
   store cost one million, plus the cost of the PDP-10; thus 10^-4
   cents/bit is reasonable for permanent storage.  The rate for short
   term storage strips (like two weeks) will be about the same.  If
   medium term storage is needed, a rate will be worked out.  ARPA will
   pay for this storage as backup for the sites.

   The on-lineness of NIC is very important for initial use, but we must
   have something better than TTY or CRT.  The Net is cheaper than the
   mails.  (Electrostatic hard-copy devices were briefly mentioned).

   Regarding new developments for AI symbolic processing, a plan hatched
   by Alan Kay is to have lots of processor, lots of core and a big
   switch with the capability of serving users in the Net.  It is to
   provide low cost core space (economics of processing are not known).
   This may become associated with some experimental hardware
   development facility since the desire is to be able to build new
   architecture in a reasonable amount of time.  It should be 10 to 100
   times faster than the PDP-10 with earliest delivery in '73.

   The speech effort is on the order of three million per year.  The
   concern now is to be able to tie together pieces at various sites for
   comparative evaluation.  The cross-testing can have an impact on the
   researcher, but everybody must maintain compatible interfaces.

   The climatology program is for predicting future long-range climate
   of the World that comes about by perturbations.  Various sites are
   involved at various levels and it is hard to get these people to big
   computers, to the data bases, and with each other.  The Network
   provides their total communication path with the I4.  Direct and
   effective use of the Network can be made without much more of an
   investment; the Rand/UCSB work is a good example.












Heafner                                                        [Page 29]
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RFC 164         Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting        May 1971


                 VII.  WEDNESDAY MORNING SESSION (5/19/71)

   This session began with discussion of file transfer protocol, led by
   Abhay Bhusan.  It was decided that the current file transfer protocol
   should be parsed into two pieces -- a data transfer protocol front-
   end that could be used for file transfer and other protocols, and the
   file mechanism protocol.  This problem was referred to the committee
   which met for the remainder of the day to specify the data transfer
   and file protocols.  An RFC will be forth-coming, describing these
   protocols.

   The data management group met in parallel Wednesday.  An RFC will be
   forthcoming on their results.






































Heafner                                                        [Page 30]
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RFC 164         Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting        May 1971


                VIII.  WEDNESDAY EVENING SESSION (5/19/71)

   The following information was summarized by Steve Crocker.

      Committees         Publication Date     Approval Date

   ICP - Postel               5/27                6/3
   File Transfer - Bhusan     6/7                 ---
   Data Mgmnt. - McKay       (7/21)               ---
   Socket Struc. - Metcalfe   6/22                ---
   Telnet - O'Sullivan        5/19                6/10
   Theory - Metcalfe          ---                 ---
   DRS - Heafner              6/1                 ---
   Graphics - Vezza          (7/18)               ---

   The following inputs were provided to Steve Crocker on implementation
   dates of NCP (RFC #107) and TELNET (RFC #158).

           Service Hosts             NCP + TELNET

             CCN                        7/1
             LL/67                      6/15
             SRI/NIC                   (6/18)
             MIT/MULTICS                7/1
             BBN/10X                     ?
             UCSB/75                    Up

   __Host__                NCP (RFC #107)          TELNET (RFC #158)

   UCLA/S7                      6/1                      6/15
   Rand                         Up                       6/15
   Utah                         Up                       6/15
   U. of Ill.                   7/1                      7/1
   Harvard                       ?                        ?
   MIT/DM                       5/25                     6/25

   The following inputs were provided to Steve Crocker on schedules for
   current and pending work.

        Users                          Tasks

        Mitre                 data management in progress

        Raytheon              data sharing (August)

        NBS                   PDP-11 via low-speed phone line
                              (July)




Heafner                                                        [Page 31]
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RFC 164         Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting        May 1971


        BBN                   validation of resource notebook
                              (July 15)

        UCLA                  data store, retrieval, reduction
                              (July 1)

        DM/MULTICS/Harvard    graphics, file transfer (July 1)

        Ames/67               I4 simulator (July 15)
                              climate with UCSB (now)
                              climate with UCLA (July 1)
                              DRS (September)
                              SRI/NIC (August)
                              LL LISP (?)

        LL                    TX2 speech data
                              TX2 data transfer (now)
                              TSP compiler (September)

        U. of Ill.            remote use (July 1)
                              link to Paoli (July 1)

Miscellaneous Issues

   Alex McKenzie will generate the NCP functional document in one month
   as an experiment.

   Service documents to be sent to NIC include normal user documentation
   you would use at the site plus special conventions (if any) for
   remote users.  Read RFC #115 and RFC #118.

NWG Organization

   There is some concern over the size of the NWG.  Its functions and
   reorganization were discussed.  Nothing definitive resulted
   immediately.  It was suggested by Steve Crocker that another NWG
   meeting would be held in August.

   Dr. Roberts and Steve Crocker created a steering committee to examine
   this and other problems.  More will be said about the steering
   committee by Steve Crocker, at a later date.


       [ This RFC was put into machine readable form for entry ]
       [ into the online RFC archives by Nicholas Barnes 08/99 ]






Heafner                                                        [Page 32]
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